DISCUSSION FORUM:
feminism and its influence on the portrayal of sexual power



This is an archive page for February 1999.

Where reader comments are of interest or where they raise significant points I publish my response in dialogue pages such as this one. Reader comment excerpts are in black and my replies in red. Please send your scathing critiques and observations to the email address


From: John Galt cernunos@lips.net
Subject: double standards
Date: Friday 19 Feb 1999

On your double standards page, two issues came up. The first is in response to your statement "It seems a little cruel to press the point and no malice is intended towardwomen in general."

I think that men need to start holding "women in general" more accountable for the excesses of feminism. There is a vast complicity of silence on all the issues most harmful to men, from presumptive maternal custody to misandry and man-bashing. Simply looking at the incredible spread of feminism, and how rapidly and completely it has transformed the cultures it has touched, demands that the questions "how" and "why" be asked. How could such a clearly anti-reality ideology take such hold in such a short period of time. Why have women remained so silent on the issue as long as it was only men who were suffering from it. The answer, I believe, lies in the fact that the notion of gaining something for nothing was very attractive to them. As long as they could gain without having to give up anything they were all for it. While these women sat by in silent assent, the feminists avenged all the petty slights that the silent ones had suffered at the hands of men.

Perhaps the greatest double standard of all is the one which we socially still REFUSE to talk about: sexual harassment and sexual invasiveness by women. How many centuries ago was the maxim "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" coined. Busting this one open and exposing all the manipulative, abusive, and exploitive means that women use to get men into bed; as well as how ugly and abusive they get when men refuse; would expose the incredible lie which forms the foundation of SH and rape law.

Another dirty little secret that is leaving women bewildered is the growing number of husbands who are just completely shutting down sexually on their wives. Pseudo-medical-psychobabble diagnoses like "ISD - Inhibited Sexual Desire" and Viagra prescritions notwithstanding, there is finally beginning to be some dialogue among men about the women who are obnoxious and offensive to sleep with. Believe it or not, women have far more fragile egos than men in this regard. A report on male sexuality in the same vein as the Hite report would get men off the defensive and put women back on the hot seat to do something more than show up and make demands when it comes to sex. Or, they can learn to do without, which is far tougher for women than they let on. It has only been men's good sportsmanship combined with their stupidity which has kept men delivering room-service-orgasms for the past 25 years without asking for their own needs to be met.

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Have all women absorbed some underlying aspect of feminist ideology? Let me say first of all that some statistical research indicates that about 60% of women in America do not identify as feminists. No doubt other statistics will show other figures. One of the complaints feminists have always had is that they can not join more women to their cause and it has always remained an enigma to them as to how to propagate the faith successfully among the female masses. Thankfully, this teeming female horde responds typically "we don't hate men and we don't want to have hairy legs." But as you say many women may nevertheless harbor feelings toward men that are not necessarily out of joint with some key feminist concepts: disdain, chauvenism, etc. As you will note by my comments women are by no means generally discriminated against in our modern societies, and they are in many respects treated with special consideration. This is partly due to the agitation of feminists but no less due to the benevolent actions and beliefs of men. These male attitudes have most often been called chivalry. So this system is perpetuated at some level by a broad consensus. Now we have to acknowledge in this context that some women are going to take advantage of this system. Wouldn't you accept getting something for nothing?? A famous case occurred recently with the Australian nanny or baby sitter who shook a child to death in England. (Louise Sullivan, see also Louise Woodward a British killer-nanny in the US) This month Sullivan got charged with manslaughter instead of murder and was also set free! The argument, accepted by the judge, was that she was herself brain damaged, even though she had gone to an elite school. And she might commit suicide in jail so we shouldn't jail her. Yet for comparison in Australia, when a father shakes his own child to death due to his ignorance and insensitivity with children he can expect 6 years. If the child is not his own and the killing is deliberate he can expect up to 20 years with many calling for the lynch-mob. (In the Phillipines we see a guy get the death penalty for sexual abuse of a child. Why should we forgive him?) However, regardless of the double standard, would you blame her for trying to stay out of jail and playing up on her own vulnerability? This is not a feminist issue overtly, but part of long lived social sentimentality toward females. However I noted some feminist commentary which suggested this issue was about efforts to drive women back into the home by discrediting babysitters who "murder" the babies of "career women".

Onto another point: Your commentary on female privilege centres on the issue of bedroom sexual relations as a pinnacle of the double standard. This is a can of worms and I can tell you that you have pinpointed some female behavioral traits. However I can't say that all of it is equally forceful. Many women do pretend to be shy and disinterested in sex and yet lure men into the bedroom. That way they don't come across as "easy" and he has made the decisive action. It was his will and she may plead that he insisted on the event. However there are an equal number of women that I know of who are no longer so shy or coy and can make their feelings known and take charge of their demands. There are therefore many women who set out to have sexual pleasure with men and may demand a peak performance. The irony is that for the last 20 years, with our increasing focus on sexual pleasure, we have still been taught that men are brutal sexual pigs who orgasm in 60 seconds. Many do exactly that, but probably a greater number have made relentless effort to ensure that they please women in the bedroom. Then it's very much a case of "after you madam." Or this scenario: "It's 2am. I've been playing with her clitoris for the last 50 minutes and she's still moaning for more and I have to start work at 6 in the morning!"

Even men's magazines have increasingly emphasised the importance of ensuring the sexual gratification of the female partner. In the meantime these "civilised" men have forgotten their own sexual need. Hell, they never had one except for the days when getting off was the only criteria. I really suspect many men have no concept of sexual pleasure and sometimes it even frustrates women who wish that the guy would be MORE selfish rather than less selfish. What I am trying to say here is that the problem that I describe here is as much to do with an imbalance of sexual political rhetoric as a degree of social underdevelopment in men. This is my generalisation. Clearly there are women who are sexually avaricious but I don't think this is the majority. Many women have come to have high expectations and they are not getting the same level of demands from men.

Your comment on male impotence (frigidity?) is insightful. I have mostly avoided women who I am totally incompatible with or who I find intimidating or repulsive. I think I would suffer from incompetence too in their company. In fact it has happened once before. However it is also the case that men do seem to have a certain sexual chivalry too. It is socially assumed that men are always willing and ready to fuck. They will never miss the opportunity. Whereas in fact we often don't feel like it. Yet ironically women are often saying they don't want to, even when secretly they do. In contrast men feel compelled to say yes, even when they mean no. Why do we do it? From my own experience it is almost as if it would be too impolite to say no. It would be to reject the woman, to suggest she is unattractive. But you see, here I am blaming myself once again. Undoubtedly there are women who won't take no for an answer, but keep in mind that there are reciprocal qualities in this issue.


From: Karin nirak4711@hotmail.com
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999

I have long been part of a feminist mentality.That is, I'm surrounded by self described feminists. I'm bisexual and therefore have encountered man hating lesbians. I believe whole heartedly in women's rights, but I've always shyed away from calling myself a feminist. This has become even more acute lately, as I see stereotypes present everywhere and men being blamed for everything and I would hate to see myself as part of that. Often I've looked at ads featuring beautiful women and though I enjoy their beauty, there is that same feeling in the back of my head that has been present ever since I was a little girl- "she's prettier than me." at the same time, I enjoy the aesthetic qualities of the ad, and I find it hard to believe that anyone could blame this entirely on men. How many women were behind those ads? There are women photographers for Playboy, women who write porn for men for a living, not to mention the women actually in the ads, and still people claim this is because of men. Is it really their fault that we can't live up to the ideal? Do they really expect us to?

Ok, some of them do. Just like some women expect their men to live up to that standard of manhood - provide for them, open doors for them, pay for dinner, be romantic (that is, buy big expensive Valentine's day presents) and have an eight inch dick and muscles to boot.

I am annoyed by the fact that if my boyfriend and I go out to dinner with someone more than twice, they invariably ask "are you paying for him again?" Though I know they would not ask that if he was paying for me. That he then feels guilty for not being able to buy me things, because he simply can't afford it. That he feels guilty when I get him a gift, though I know a girl in that position would just say "oh, you shouldn't have" and accept it anyway. He's always saying things like "I'll make it up to you" when I enjoy being with him so much that that's payment enough. And I know that the ONLY reason he feels this way is because he's the man, and, as everyone knows, he's supposed to provide for me, not the other way around.

So how can I possibly call myself a feminist if I'm angry at women... not all women, but the women who asked for so much, for so long. For the ones that assume a man will pay even though he may make no more than she does. For the ones that get angry if he does not open the door for them, for the ones who use their bodies as a weapon against the men, who make the men feel like sex with them is a privilage, and they will do it because it is their duty, not because they enjoy it. The ones that say a penis is "icky" and only touch it if they have to. The ones who make men feel guilty for looking at another girl, while gossiping with their girlfriends about the hot hunks in the movies.
Oh, all this may seem a bit harsh, and I'm sure many feminists will hate me for it. I understand the problems that women have too - And I realize that I do some of the things that I bash other people for. But I see it, and I try to change. It's not as one sided as it appears - everyone has faults, some more than others. I think that a lot of hard core feminists see one type of man - the aggressive, dominant oaf which really represents very few actual men, while calling the women who are their equivalents "bitches" and consider them the exception, not the norm.

The ideal would be a society in which everyone understands that both being a man and being a woman have their downfalls, they both have weaknesses, they both have strengths. Yes, men and women are different. They are not unequel, just different. And hating or holding stereotypes against someone because he is male is just the same as hating someone because they are black, gay, or poor. Don't assume anything.

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There are some interesting subjects that you cover. I will respond to the area of aesthetics. There has been a bit of controversy about this lately. It has become fairly unacceptable to depict (attractive) women in a sexual way on billboards because the logic says this is degrading to women. There was an advert recently that got pulled down by public demand because it showed some "babes", their underpants showing from the rear as a wind pushed up their dresses. Yet apparently women designed the ad. On the other hand there was a billboard for suntan cream which showed 6 hunky males all naked, covering their dicks with the bottle. ("For the biggest organ of your body: your skin.) No social outrage. Nor should there have been.

Almost all adverts depicting men involve images of a very large male torso that can only be achieved by biological endowment and extensive exercise. It does not affect me as a male because I have other talents and attributes that make me attractive (to women). This makes one wonder about the feminist campaign against one version of the ideal image of women. They imply that only perfect women can be successful or attractive. However the meaning of the ad does not say this at all. What it does imply however is that (women's) beauty can be a potent attractant to men. One must assume that a powerful male physique can be attractive to some women too. Yet men who feel inadequate about their body and not being physically strong must feel left out by this. It depends very largely on your attitude and obsessions with self image.

As a male, I find women who concentrate on beauty to the exclusion of other talents quite boring. Nice to look at but not to befriend.

So it all goes to say that we are not perfect. Some are lucky to be attractive either by birth or grooming but it can lead to an imbalance in character. You are clearly wise enough to avoid stereotyping your own condition in this issue. By subscribing to the feminist ideology people end up missing all the complexities of what makes humans attractive to each other.


From: Therese tcisneros@cagop.org
Date: Thu, 11 Feb
While I have been a feminist for most of my life, I tend to agree with certain aspects of your argument. Feminism is the idea that women are considered equal to men. This includes the right to attain the same jobs at the same pay. I will disagree that women are paid equally, we are, in fact, often not paid as highly. However, it must also be said that woman should not earn more BECAUSE she is a woman.

The feminist over the last twenty years have brought both people of color/minorities and lesbianism/bisexuality/homosexuality into the realm of feminism. While I believe in equal rights for all, these are more human issues that face both men and women- therefore, while feminist can certainly support these issues, they should not become the core of their arguments, which groups like the National Organization for Women (NOW) have done. They have taken the private medical decision of abortion and thrown it into politics, claiming the right to do what they want with their body- well, a man was a part of creating the fetus, so therefore, the man has some viewpoint in this issue as well.

Feminist groups, especially NOW, have cited a REpublican backlash that offends me. As a member of a feminist organization and someone who works for the Republican party, the two are not connected. Believing in fiscal efficiency and personal responsibility does not make anyone anti-woman or part of the "right-wing backlash." It is the very differencing of these beliefs that promote dialogue between our elected officials, allowing them to see all sides of a situation and the possible outcomes before making a decision.

Feminism in its purest state is healthy, but modern feminism is nothing but a tool to wield the power against someone who takes a different viewpoint.

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Feminism is an ideology that has an extraordinary connection with left wing radical thought. For this reason it is not surprising that feminists and leftists both take digs at right wing women or women who have connections with the Republican Party. You are in a difficult position.

I recall that in the 1980s feminists and their sympathisers were always criticising Margaret Thatcher. They hated her even though she had achieved a mighty victory of being a woman in one of the most powerful positions in one of the most powerful countries in the world. At one level she proved that women could make it but her hard line reform of the economy made her widely hated, though the fact remains that she was popularly elected. So feminists argued, quite seriously, either that she was not actually a woman, but a man in disguise, or that she was a patriarchal lacky. It's a bankrupt response. Thatcher was a politician first and foremost and did hard work to make Britain more successful economically. I don't know her view on feminism but I am inclined to think she is unsympathetic to most of it. As an advocate of individual enterprise she would believe that all men and women should strive to get ahead. However, clearly society must provide the infrastructure to ensure that we all get the opportunity to achieve something.


From: john cdf345@imap4.asu.edu
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999

You are very right in the comments that you make referring to violent women and women who are manipulative. But we see a "rotten apple" out of every bunch, right? And those types usually ruin it for everybody else. Am I right? The thing about feminism that many people seem to overlook is this: feminism is NOT about getting the power over men. It is NOT about saying how men are pigs and women are saints. It IS about changing the way we as a society look at life (our values, our rituals, our media) and evaluating the way that we treat PEOPLE, not just women. The country was founded upon three central ideas: patriarchy, eurocentricity, and capitalism. The latter I happen to agree with to some extent. But the first two ideas need to be changed. I don't have answers, but I do feel very strongly about the good of women studies and feminism as a whole. I get very tired of constantly having to justify myself as a feminist. I will leave you with a great quote: "I haven't the slightest idea what a feminist is, but I do know I am called one everytime I try to distinguish myself from a doormat." -Rebecca West

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Unfortunately your observations fall into a pattern of messages that I have seen a great deal of lately on the reader page. They all make the same point and they are fundamentally flawed in their reasoning, let alone insufficient in the development of their argument. I keep hearing "feminism is really about..." and then a series of feel good terms. But this really shows a profound lack of familiarity with the literature. This is an ideology that exists only at the amateur level. At this level we see people who have a vague notion that there is an injustice that has been perpetrated against certain "weak" members of society and they would like to attach themselves to the fight to make things right. Feminism claims to be the banner which will solve the issues and so you march under it, defending the flag. It is naive.

But I want to take up one particular issue. You say that feminism makes us think (about sexual power). Here I disagree. It makes you think you are thinking, because it is asking you to question your supposed perceptions about existing society. It is telling you that there are certain things wrong with the relationship between the sexes and that problem or injustice stems from patriarchy; from male power... in other words from men. They acknowledge that sometimes even men are oppressed by their own system. But I should point out that at no time did you think. They told you what was wrong and what the solutions are, based on rigid fundamental concepts of power which are not allowed to be questioned. There is a one eyed view of the world that they promote and it actually makes us blind to the complexities and "dialectics" (interactions) of male and female power. This makes feminism really nothing much more than a religion, giving a faith with a comforting set of aphorisms about doormats and 75 cents short of a dollar, but no insight into the subtle truth. There are so many questions to be asked about the things that make people tick, what drives them to violence or hostility or anguish, regardless of what sex they are. We wont get the answer with feminism. It's a reference point only.

Your quote is a great one by the way. I came across it again the other day in a newspaper, where it was displayed prominently without explanation. The method it employs is to solidify that grand notion of stoic rebellion against ignorance. It says women are doormats, that men use to wipe their shoes, smeared with shit and road dirt. It is a poignant and touching analogy. Every time a woman tries to rise from her abject slavery and submission she is cast into the mold of feminist. And yet every time an ordinary man says he is tired of the vitriol and whinging about pornography and patriarchy and glass ceilings and male lust he knows it is feminism which stands behind it. But if he criticises it, he is necessarily turning the woman into a coconut husk fibre doormat. What a beast. He must be resisted at all costs.

So the quote does a clever job of resisting valid criticism, by making all criticisms of feminism oppressive. At the same time,adherents of feminism are portrayed as engaged solely in lifting women up from under the male jackboot... ironically, without even needing to know what feminism really is.

The respondent replies:
Here's my response to your response....I do not doubt that my reaction "falls into a pattern of messages" you've seen lately, but I believe there is a reason for that: FEMINISM IS MISUNDERSTOOD. I could say that until I am blue in the face...and I just might if I thought it would help people like yourself realize....but I know that would be a futile thing to do. Anyway, I know my statement above may sound hokey, or even naive. But it is true. Think about it this way: Many men claim that the people most discriminated against in this country is the white male. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with that statement, but the point is, I want to understand it. I want to know where men are coming from when they say this. So I ask; what makes you feel that way? And, what would make you feel better? Many people would turn up their noses and make a comment such as, "oh isn't that just like a white male. They think they're so oppressed...what the hell do they know." Asking people, finding out others' experiences and where they are coming from...in a sense "walking a mile in another's moccasins" is the only way, I believe, to ending many problems. I'm not saying we should all get in a drum circle and sing Kumbaya or anything, but we should be more tolerant to others' views, and recognize them just like you would your own. The point I'm getting at here is that feminism did not just pop up one day as a result of a bored housewife. I don't trick myself into thinking something is wrong with society just because some lame professor told me so. I can see what a distorted image we all receive concerning women and feminism by the media, my family, my friends, strangers, songs on the radio, movies, newspapers, ads.....I could go on and on....I see this every day. Throughout history men have abused women, claimed them as property, raped, killed, sodomized, genitally mutilated women; we as a society have a history of looking upon ourselves as being superior to other cultures, competely undermining others. We have a history of condemning people who are different from us. This needs to stop. Now in my response, I may not have many facts, but I could fill you full of completely insane things doctors, scientists, theologians (all male), have come up with in the past and more recent, to describe women, or to tell the world why we are deviant. I'll give you an example...there used to be a theory that said that women were literally half baked. That in the womb we didn't get enough heat, and that we are half man....how ridiculous is that?


Renee wiltest@css.edu
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999

I guess that since I have lived a fairly liberal life, in my family, in my church and in my education, I am not used to hearing this type of view unless it is completely made up to piss someone off. It honestly surprises me that you feel this way, and I have a couple thoughts:
1) Maybe you are just being a smart ass and don't mean any of it.
2) Maybe you live a very sheltered life, and don't ever hear of any research.
3) Maybe you are 10 years old.

I am sorry if this is offensive, but I can't believe that an educated, mature adult could possibly feel this way.

It has been found that on the average, women are paid 70-75 cents for every dollar the average man makes. And, (again on the average) today most women with a college education will make only about $1200 a year more than a man with only a high school diploma. These are both fact. I don't believe you have stated one fact in your website.

Please don't write your opinion as fact.

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I wont answer in depth because you have not provided an observation in depth or detail. (For example, what is the average wage in US dollars. What jobs do college women actually hold? Do men with high school diplomas become skilled tradesmen?) In addition I am getting too many emails of this type, which are willfully ignorant of the complexity of the argument. I will say simply that the notion of a whole group being oppressed on the basis of their WAGE, needs some additional support. It does not take into account INCOME which is a different matter again. (A housewife who is married to a high earning man has a higher than average male income for example).

Statistics are often distorted in the way they are collected or designed deliberately to give the maximum disparity of apparent wealth and remuneration. Statistics are one of the mighty shields of feminism. They also serve as one of its comfortable homilies, allowing liberals to feel that there is something worth fighting for.

I feel exactly like you but in reverse. In other words, I am used to hearing this type of view endlessly repeated in the media. Is it to piss me off? Forget statistics for a moment. Look around you. The proof is out there. Then form an opinion based on what YOU see.


From: MOTECK1457@aol.com
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999

Your perspective is unfortunate. I've been an ardent feminist since I've was nine years old (implicitly) and explicitly for all of my adult life. Feminism is about women's human rights, and ultimately, liberation for us all. Do you really want to live in a world with female general mutilation, rape, wife-abuse, widespread contempt and devaluation of girl children in many cultures, the extremism of the Taliban in Afganistan. . . the list goes on and on. Two thirds of the adults of the world who are illiterate are women. Global poverty disproportionately impacts on women and children. How much more empirical evidence do you need?

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While these sentiments are largely noble I think they tend to fit into the classification of goals of common decency and humanitarianism. You are mixing up your theories, attributing humanitarian equality goals and ideals with feminist ones. However it is telling. It suggests that you think these issues which appear to only affect women (and they don't) are somehow only issues that women would take an interest in. As men are the rapists then men must identify with rapists, except when they are feminist men. The logic therefore makes a tacitly insidious sexist assumption about us. It may even be sexist toward women, implying that women would take no interest in men's welfare and issues either. Indeed, this is certainly a traditional feminist mindset. The attitude is divisive and naive and sad and wrong. You've been ardently wrong since you were 9.


From: Angela ardalmolin@students.wisc.edu
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999

I would briefly like to comment on a few points discussed on your website. Firstly, I have never considered myself to be feminist and will agree with the fact that an abundance of feminist literature is exaggerated to an extreme point; at the same time, your defense of mankind, in my opinion, ignores the facts concerning women in history.

You seem to believe that there are equal opportunities in all areas for both men and women and the only thing I can infer from that is that you feel women throughout history have had these opportunities, otherwise, how do you explain the vestiges of a male dominated society. Please keep in mind that suffrage for females only came about this century and consider the primary owners of most wealth in this country- white males. Just look at the list of presidents to see that fact. Not only in the realm of politics, but also finances. As the saying goes, "money talks" and this is especially true in a consumer oriented country like the United States. Just turning on the television, which i rarely do, or observing advertisements will show you the target audience-with things like scantily clad women (in may i remind you, mostly in high heels with fake breasts, both of which are an extreme detriment to the body), sports (not that women can't like sports, because i myself am an avid participant and spectatory), etc. -what is the point of targeting white men? Obviously because they have the money.

And as far as your statement about men, more times than not, bringing in the loot to support the family, well if there were a more equal salary status maybe we could be more independent financially, but that would threaten the existing structure; if you look at the facts, women in general earn lower salaries than men. I will readily admit that this is beginning to change (although not at the expense of white males as you claim, only now they will have to compete with women for jobs-which actually might lead to higher standards anyway, by the mere addition of competion), and in actuality, it might be well founded because of the lack of educational resources offered to women- they stayed at home and took care of everything remember? The only way to rectify the situation is to start at the beginning- as children. I feel that language is a very powerful force and is the vehicle of learning for the most part; how then can a young girl grow up proud to be female when her world of language is dominated by male terms (which some might argue is changing also) such as: the inclusion of females in the generic term man and the assigned he as the accepted singular pronoun, the famous "one small step for man, one giant step for mankind", "mail man", pronounced "man and wife" (as she simultaneously adopts his last name as hers and is often sent mail sent to Mrs. Husband's entire name), and "man the oars" to name a few? Some may see this as a trivial issue, but it has all the virtues of propaganda, such as: frequent repetition, used by well respected sources (University texts and professors- who are mostly male), begins at an early age, and covertness. And as for your comment about "Women and children first", in my opinion it's not a gracious gesture out of concern, but an implication that we can't take care of ourselves, reinforced by the knight in shining armor coming to rescue his "damsel in distress". Well, I for one don't need anyone to rescue me and resent the fact that women are placed on the same competency level as children.

The mere fact that you state "In public life women have gained increasing formal recognition", implies that they haven't had adequate recognition in the first place which seems to contradict parts of your argument that women's fight for rights is unfounded and they have an unwarranted vendetta against men. In many parts of the world, female children are still considered far less valuable than male children in general. I read in the paper the other day of an Egyptian family trying to have a boy and when they got a girl, the father was outraged, stormed out of the hospital complaining that he wanted nothing to do with her. (Sorry I do not have the source, but this is informal, right?)

By no means am I justifying "male bashing", because taking it to such extremes does harm to both sexes, but your site made me very angry as a woman to have such strong factual history blatantly denied. I feel as though men and women both have an equal amount to contribute to each other and to the world, just qualitatively different. Anyway, I hope that you seriously consider what I've discussed and think about all the Salem Witch Hunts in the mean time; women persecuted out of superstition, condemned and stereotyped by whom?- Men.

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I also beg to differ. Fundamentally all your statements conform to orthodox feminist perspectives on the relations of sexual power between men and women. You have a thorough knowledge of the realms of disputation and ideology. Given that you also believe in improving the treatment of women relative to men, you have all the crdentials to give yourself the title. In fact, just because some feminists are more extreme in their outlook should not deter you, just as a person can identify as Christian yet not have to believe in refusing blood donations from ....men.

I cannot address all the points that you raise but I will address two for the sake of argument. The issue of suffrage you raise is telling. When you raise the issue you must identify which country is in question. I only have good information on Great Britain so I will use the statistics and facts from there. In the 19th century very few people had democratic rights and only a select number of people made important political decisions. Britain was at the forefront of democratic movements though not the leader. Toward the middle of the century a select number of upper class males where able to participate more in the decision making process. This increased with some agitation until several million men were able to vote. (2.2 million adult men out of a population of 22 million). Crucially, one of the reasons most people were excluded was according to the requirement of owning property. Without property the person was ineligible. Men were assumed to make voting decisions on behalf of the family and as women's property was combined with that of men upon marriage the idea of women voting was considered irrelevant. My understanding is also that suffragists were not interested inthe vote for all women, but for women of property. Furthermore there were strict rules on voting age rights. There was a belief that people were not sufficiently mature to vote until they were 21 there was also certainly some prejudice toward women being sufficiently mature. Now the point you make is that women did not vote until this century. (Full suffrage in 1924 in Britain) The fact remains that many men (in Britain) also did not vote until the 20th century. While discrimination is evident it is not of the scale of insidious prejudice which is characteristically invoked to generate indignation at the oppression of women.

I recently saw a very similar clever ideological dissimulation on the subject of the Olympics. A feminist expressed outrage at women's exclusion from the Olympic games at their modern inception. Woe and martyrdom! However that was in 1896 and the following games had female representation, thus making the issue virtually irrelevant. It should be pointed out that some women agitated against females participating. But much more significantly, we know women have a completely separate set of events and sports. If women had to compete equally in any sport there would literally be no female medal winners at all...except in the hop skip and whine. By having separate events women are given an opportunity to be honoured as exceptional athletes, within their sex and thus they are also frequently given equal star billing to the male athletes competing in similar events but performing at a higher level. I personally take no great interest in sport and the superior performance of male athletes is purely a technical observation. However, how do you maintain the claim of patriarchy under such circumstances?

Now to your claim that men own most wealth. It should be said that the Uinted Nations is also a feminist organisation because we see it reciting figures that women own 1% of the world's wealth and do 80% of the work or some such statistic. I do not know the true figures and facts for poor countries but I can say that my figures for the US paints a different picture. Some recent figures cited suggest that women own 80% of the wealth in the US. This may be attributed to their capacity to save, to their management of family finances and particularly due to their inheritance of jointly earned income and property after the death of a husband. (Men die almost 10% earlier than women, leaving a vast number of women with sole entitlement to accumulated savings.) In Australia women have a slightly higher rate of home ownership than men. I quote this from the Office for the Status of Women and the figure has solid logic. The reason is because women marry on average 3 years younger than men and they buy a house jointly. It should be mentioned that a house is by far the single most significant purchase made by people.

These are simply two primary issues and on each of the points you raise below there is a similar series of arguments. As you may notice I do not necessarily disagree wih some grey areas of your claims.

I am not trying to simplify the issues. I am trying to point out subtleties and complexities to expose the grandiose feminist statements seen constantly in the public eye as propaganda.


From: "Cammy" Cammy@cammy.force9.net
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999

I disagree with a lot of things you say on your web, to me feminism is all about choice and the freedom to make your own decisions ie motherhood, going out to work whatever. its people like you that give femanism the bad name.


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I agree with you entirely. It is people like me that give feminism a bad name, or at least are trying very hard to. Feminism is an ideology or theory promoted as progressive and just. That is the best way that any group of ideologues can spread and promote their principles and get more people to support them. "All we really want is justice and peace and equality." is their moto. But this is not even feminism at its most simple level. This is just a "motherhood" statement.

The critical aim must be to look at the substance of the theory. We all want justice and equality. Even men want women to have a fair chance to live a fulfilling life. But what does feminism ACTUALLY say, in its detail? What is its analysis of sexual power?

When scrutinised, that is when critical people discover that its theories are one dimensional, sexist, aggressive, misleading, hateful, discriminatory, vacuous, circular, boring and ultimately even insidious.

I suspect people such as yourself are sitting in Gender Studies lectures and thinking "I am learning about equality and motherhood rights." Meanwhile the professor says, the essay for this week is "...that the modalities of feminine comportment, motility and spatiality exhibit tension between transcendance and immanence, between subjectivity and being a mere object." To translate this into English, "Feminism says: you're a piece of meat honey."


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The main feminist statement page.

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The site map with all current pages on sexual politics, links periodic essays.

men and feminism

A more detailed definition of feminism and its significance to men.

his/herstory

A chapter on the interpretation history from the perspective of sexual power. About 100k

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