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This is an archive page for February 1999. Where reader comments are of interest or where they raise significant points I publish my response in dialogue pages such as this one. Reader comment excerpts are in black and my replies in red. Please send your scathing critiques and observations to the email address | |
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From: John Galt cernunos@lips.net Subject: double standards Date: Friday 19 Feb 1999 On your double standards page, two issues came up. The first is in response to your statement "It seems a little cruel to press the point and no malice is intended towardwomen in general." I think that men need to start holding "women in general" more accountable for the excesses of feminism. There is a vast complicity of silence on all the issues most harmful to men, from presumptive maternal custody to misandry and man-bashing. Simply looking at the incredible spread of feminism, and how rapidly and completely it has transformed the cultures it has touched, demands that the questions "how" and "why" be asked. How could such a clearly anti-reality ideology take such hold in such a short period of time. Why have women remained so silent on the issue as long as it was only men who were suffering from it. The answer, I believe, lies in the fact that the notion of gaining something for nothing was very attractive to them. As long as they could gain without having to give up anything they were all for it. While these women sat by in silent assent, the feminists avenged all the petty slights that the silent ones had suffered at the hands of men. Perhaps the greatest double standard of all is the one which we socially still REFUSE to talk about: sexual harassment and sexual invasiveness by women. How many centuries ago was the maxim "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" coined. Busting this one open and exposing all the manipulative, abusive, and exploitive means that women use to get men into bed; as well as how ugly and abusive they get when men refuse; would expose the incredible lie which forms the foundation of SH and rape law. Another dirty little secret that is leaving women bewildered is the growing number of husbands who are just completely shutting down sexually on their wives. Pseudo-medical-psychobabble diagnoses like "ISD - Inhibited Sexual Desire" and Viagra prescritions notwithstanding, there is finally beginning to be some dialogue among men about the women who are obnoxious and offensive to sleep with. Believe it or not, women have far more fragile egos than men in this regard. A report on male sexuality in the same vein as the Hite report would get men off the defensive and put women back on the hot seat to do something more than show up and make demands when it comes to sex. Or, they can learn to do without, which is far tougher for women than they let on. It has only been men's good sportsmanship combined with their stupidity which has kept men delivering room-service-orgasms for the past 25 years without asking for their own needs to be met.
Skip to next entry or continue with my reply.
Onto another point: Your commentary on female privilege centres on the issue
of bedroom sexual relations as a pinnacle of the double standard. This is a
can of worms and I can tell you that you have pinpointed some female
behavioral traits. However I can't say that all of it is equally forceful.
Many women do pretend to be shy and disinterested in sex and yet lure men
into the bedroom. That way they don't come across as "easy" and he has made
the decisive action. It was his will and she may plead that he insisted on
the event. However there are an equal number of women that I know of who are
no longer so shy or coy and can make their feelings known and take charge of
their demands. There are therefore many women who set out to have sexual
pleasure with men and may demand a peak performance.
The irony is that for the last 20 years, with our increasing focus on sexual
pleasure, we have still been taught that men are brutal sexual pigs who
orgasm in
60 seconds. Many do exactly that, but probably a greater number have made
relentless effort to ensure that they please women in the bedroom. Then it's
very much a case of "after you madam." Or this scenario: "It's 2am. I've
been playing with her clitoris for the last 50 minutes and she's still
moaning for more and I have to start work at 6 in the morning!"
Even men's magazines have increasingly emphasised the importance of ensuring
the sexual gratification of the female partner. In the meantime these
"civilised" men have forgotten their own sexual need. Hell, they never had
one except for the days when getting off was the only criteria.
I really
suspect many men have no concept of sexual pleasure and sometimes it even
frustrates women who wish that the guy would be MORE selfish rather than
less selfish. What I am trying to say here is that the problem that I
describe here is as much to do with an imbalance of sexual political
rhetoric as a degree of social underdevelopment in men. This is my
generalisation.
Clearly there are women who are sexually avaricious but I don't think this
is the majority. Many women have come to have high expectations and they are
not
getting the same level of demands from men.
Your comment on male impotence (frigidity?) is insightful. I have mostly
avoided women who I am totally incompatible with or who I find intimidating
or repulsive. I think I would suffer from incompetence too in their company.
In fact it has happened once before. However it is also the case that men do
seem to have a certain sexual chivalry too. It is socially assumed that men
are always willing and ready to fuck. They will never miss the opportunity.
Whereas in fact we often don't feel like it. Yet ironically women are often
saying they don't want to, even when secretly they do. In contrast men feel
compelled to say yes, even when they mean no. Why do we do it? From my own
experience it is almost as if it would be too impolite to say no. It would
be
to reject the woman, to suggest she is unattractive. But you see, here I am
blaming myself once again. Undoubtedly there are women who won't take no for
an answer, but keep in mind that there are reciprocal qualities in this
issue. From: Karin nirak4711@hotmail.com Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 I have long been part of a feminist mentality.That is, I'm surrounded by self described feminists. I'm bisexual and therefore have encountered man hating lesbians. I believe whole heartedly in women's rights, but I've always shyed away from calling myself a feminist. This has become even more acute lately, as I see stereotypes present everywhere and men being blamed for everything and I would hate to see myself as part of that. Often I've looked at ads featuring beautiful women and though I enjoy their beauty, there is that same feeling in the back of my head that has been present ever since I was a little girl- "she's prettier than me." at the same time, I enjoy the aesthetic qualities of the ad, and I find it hard to believe that anyone could blame this entirely on men. How many women were behind those ads? There are women photographers for Playboy, women who write porn for men for a living, not to mention the women actually in the ads, and still people claim this is because of men. Is it really their fault that we can't live up to the ideal? Do they really expect us to? Ok, some of them do. Just like some women expect their men to live up to that standard of manhood - provide for them, open doors for them, pay for dinner, be romantic (that is, buy big expensive Valentine's day presents) and have an eight inch dick and muscles to boot. I am annoyed by the fact that if my boyfriend and I go out to dinner with someone more than twice, they invariably ask "are you paying for him again?" Though I know they would not ask that if he was paying for me. That he then feels guilty for not being able to buy me things, because he simply can't afford it. That he feels guilty when I get him a gift, though I know a girl in that position would just say "oh, you shouldn't have" and accept it anyway. He's always saying things like "I'll make it up to you" when I enjoy being with him so much that that's payment enough. And I know that the ONLY reason he feels this way is because he's the man, and, as everyone knows, he's supposed to provide for me, not the other way around.
So how can I possibly call myself a feminist if I'm angry at women...
not all women, but the women who asked for so much, for so long. For the
ones that assume a man will pay even though he may make no more than she
does. For the ones that get angry if he does not open the door for them,
for the ones who use their bodies as a weapon against the men, who make
the men feel like sex with them is a privilage, and they will do it
because it is their duty, not because they enjoy it. The ones that say a
penis is "icky" and only touch it if they have to. The ones who make men
feel guilty for looking at another girl, while gossiping with their
girlfriends about the hot hunks in the movies. The ideal would be a society in which everyone understands that both being a man and being a woman have their downfalls, they both have weaknesses, they both have strengths. Yes, men and women are different. They are not unequel, just different. And hating or holding stereotypes against someone because he is male is just the same as hating someone because they are black, gay, or poor. Don't assume anything.
Skip to next entry or continue with my reply.
Almost all adverts depicting men involve images of a very large male torso
that can only be achieved by biological endowment and extensive exercise. It
does not affect me as a male because I have other talents and attributes
that make me attractive (to women). This makes one wonder about the feminist
campaign against one version of the ideal image of women. They imply that
only perfect women can be successful or attractive. However the meaning of
the ad does not say this at all. What it does imply however is that
(women's) beauty can be a potent attractant to men. One must assume that a
powerful male physique can be attractive to some women too. Yet men who feel
inadequate about their body and not being physically strong must feel left
out by this. It depends very largely on your attitude and obsessions with
self image.
As a male, I find women who concentrate on beauty to the exclusion of other
talents quite boring. Nice to look at but not to befriend.
So it all goes to
say that we are not perfect. Some are lucky to be attractive either by birth
or grooming but it can lead to an imbalance in character.
You are clearly wise enough to avoid stereotyping your own condition in this
issue. By subscribing to the feminist ideology people end up missing all the
complexities of what makes humans attractive to each other. From: Therese tcisneros@cagop.org Date: Thu, 11 Feb While I have been a feminist for most of my life, I tend to agree with certain aspects of your argument. Feminism is the idea that women are considered equal to men. This includes the right to attain the same jobs at the same pay. I will disagree that women are paid equally, we are, in fact, often not paid as highly. However, it must also be said that woman should not earn more BECAUSE she is a woman. The feminist over the last twenty years have brought both people of color/minorities and lesbianism/bisexuality/homosexuality into the realm of feminism. While I believe in equal rights for all, these are more human issues that face both men and women- therefore, while feminist can certainly support these issues, they should not become the core of their arguments, which groups like the National Organization for Women (NOW) have done. They have taken the private medical decision of abortion and thrown it into politics, claiming the right to do what they want with their body- well, a man was a part of creating the fetus, so therefore, the man has some viewpoint in this issue as well. Feminist groups, especially NOW, have cited a REpublican backlash that offends me. As a member of a feminist organization and someone who works for the Republican party, the two are not connected. Believing in fiscal efficiency and personal responsibility does not make anyone anti-woman or part of the "right-wing backlash." It is the very differencing of these beliefs that promote dialogue between our elected officials, allowing them to see all sides of a situation and the possible outcomes before making a decision. Feminism in its purest state is healthy, but modern feminism is nothing but a tool to wield the power against someone who takes a different viewpoint.
Skip to next entry or continue with my reply.
I recall that in the 1980s feminists and their sympathisers were always criticising Margaret Thatcher. They hated her even though she had achieved a mighty victory of being a woman in one of the most powerful positions in one of the most powerful countries in the world. At one level she proved that women could make it but her hard line reform of the economy made her widely hated, though the fact remains that she was popularly elected. So feminists argued, quite seriously, either that she was not actually a woman, but a man in disguise, or that she was a patriarchal lacky. It's a bankrupt response. Thatcher was a politician first and foremost and did hard work to make Britain more successful economically. I don't know her view on feminism but I am inclined to think she is unsympathetic to most of it. As an advocate of individual enterprise she would believe that all men and women should strive to get ahead. However, clearly society must provide the infrastructure to ensure that we all get the opportunity to achieve something. From: john cdf345@imap4.asu.edu Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 You are very right in the comments that you make referring to violent women and women who are manipulative. But we see a "rotten apple" out of every bunch, right? And those types usually ruin it for everybody else. Am I right? The thing about feminism that many people seem to overlook is this: feminism is NOT about getting the power over men. It is NOT about saying how men are pigs and women are saints. It IS about changing the way we as a society look at life (our values, our rituals, our media) and evaluating the way that we treat PEOPLE, not just women. The country was founded upon three central ideas: patriarchy, eurocentricity, and capitalism. The latter I happen to agree with to some extent. But the first two ideas need to be changed. I don't have answers, but I do feel very strongly about the good of women studies and feminism as a whole. I get very tired of constantly having to justify myself as a feminist. I will leave you with a great quote: "I haven't the slightest idea what a feminist is, but I do know I am called one everytime I try to distinguish myself from a doormat." -Rebecca West
Skip to next entry or continue with my reply.
But I want to take up one particular issue. You say that feminism makes us
think (about sexual power). Here I disagree. It makes you think you are
thinking, because it is asking you to question your supposed perceptions
about existing society. It is telling you that there are certain things
wrong with the relationship between the sexes and that problem or injustice
stems from patriarchy; from male power... in other words from men. They
acknowledge that sometimes even men are oppressed by their own system.
But I should point out that at no time did you think. They told you what was
wrong and what the solutions are, based on rigid fundamental concepts of
power which are not allowed to be questioned. There is a one eyed view of
the world that they promote and it actually makes us blind to the
complexities and "dialectics" (interactions) of male and female power. This
makes feminism really nothing much more than a religion, giving a faith with a
comforting set of aphorisms about doormats and 75 cents short of a dollar,
but no insight into the subtle truth. There are so many questions to be
asked about the things that make people tick, what drives them to violence
or hostility or anguish, regardless of what sex they are. We wont get the
answer with feminism. It's a reference point only.
Your quote is a great one by the way. I came across it again the other day
in a newspaper, where it was displayed prominently without explanation. The
method it employs is to solidify that grand notion of stoic rebellion
against ignorance. It says women are doormats, that men use to wipe their
shoes, smeared with shit and road dirt. It is a poignant and touching
analogy. Every time a woman tries to rise from her abject slavery and
submission she is cast into the mold of feminist. And yet every time an
ordinary man says he is tired of the vitriol and whinging about pornography
and patriarchy and glass ceilings and male lust he knows it is feminism
which stands behind it. But if he criticises it, he is necessarily turning
the woman into a coconut husk fibre doormat. What a beast. He must be
resisted at all costs.
So the quote does a clever job of resisting valid criticism, by making all
criticisms of feminism oppressive. At the same time,adherents of feminism are portrayed as
engaged solely in lifting women up from under the male jackboot...
ironically, without even needing to know what feminism really is.
The respondent replies:
I guess that since I have lived a fairly liberal life, in my family, in
my church and in my education, I am not used to hearing this type of
view unless it is completely made up to piss someone off. It honestly
surprises me that you feel this way, and I have a couple thoughts:
I am sorry if this is offensive, but I can't believe that an educated,
mature adult could possibly feel this way.
It has been found that on the average, women are paid 70-75 cents for
every dollar the average man makes. And, (again on the average) today
most women with a college education will make only about $1200 a year
more than a man with only a high school diploma. These are both fact. I
don't believe you have stated one fact in your website.
Please don't write your opinion as fact.
Skip to next entry or continue with my reply.
Statistics are often distorted in the way they are collected or designed deliberately to give the maximum disparity of apparent wealth and remuneration. Statistics are one of the mighty shields of feminism. They also serve as one of its comfortable homilies, allowing liberals to feel that there is something worth fighting for.
I feel exactly like you but in reverse. In other words, I am used to hearing this type of view endlessly repeated in the media. Is it to piss me off? Forget statistics for a moment. Look around you. The proof is out there. Then form an opinion based on what YOU see.
Your perspective is unfortunate. I've been an ardent feminist since I've
was nine years
old (implicitly) and explicitly for all of my adult life. Feminism is
about
women's human rights, and ultimately, liberation for us all. Do you really
want to live in a world
with female general mutilation, rape, wife-abuse, widespread contempt and
devaluation of girl children in many cultures, the extremism of the Taliban
in
Afganistan. . . the list goes on and on. Two thirds of the adults of the
world who are
illiterate are women. Global poverty disproportionately impacts on women
and
children. How much more empirical evidence do you need?
Skip to next entry or continue with my reply.
I would briefly like to comment on a few points
discussed on your website. Firstly, I have never considered myself to
be feminist and will agree with the fact that an abundance of feminist
literature is exaggerated to an extreme point; at the same time, your
defense of mankind, in my opinion, ignores the facts concerning women in
history.
You seem to believe that there are equal opportunities in all areas
for both men and women and the only thing I can infer from that is that
you feel women throughout history have had these opportunities,
otherwise, how do you explain the vestiges of a male dominated society.
Please keep in mind that suffrage for females only came about this
century and consider the primary owners of most wealth in this country-
white males. Just look at the list of presidents to see that fact. Not
only in the realm of politics, but also finances. As the saying goes,
"money talks" and this is especially true in a consumer oriented country
like the United States. Just turning on the television, which i rarely
do, or observing advertisements will show you the target audience-with
things like scantily clad women (in may i remind you, mostly in high
heels with fake breasts, both of which are an extreme detriment to the
body), sports (not that women can't like sports, because i myself am an
avid participant and spectatory), etc. -what is the point of targeting
white men? Obviously because they have the money.
And as far as your statement about men, more times than not,
bringing in the loot to support the family, well if there were a more
equal salary status maybe we could be more independent financially, but
that would threaten the existing structure; if you look at the facts,
women in general earn lower salaries than men. I will readily admit
that this is beginning to change (although not at the expense of white
males as you claim, only now they will have to compete with women for
jobs-which actually might lead to higher standards anyway, by the mere
addition of competion), and in actuality, it might be well founded
because of the lack of educational resources offered to women- they
stayed at home and took care of everything remember? The only way to
rectify the situation is to start at the beginning- as children.
I feel that language is a very powerful force and is the vehicle of
learning for the most part; how then can a young girl grow up proud to
be female when her world of language is dominated by male terms (which
some might argue is changing also) such as: the inclusion of females in
the generic term man and the assigned he as the accepted singular
pronoun, the famous "one small step for man, one giant step for
mankind", "mail man", pronounced "man and wife" (as she simultaneously
adopts his last name as hers and is often sent mail sent to Mrs.
Husband's entire name), and "man the oars" to name a few? Some may see
this as a trivial issue, but it has all the virtues of propaganda, such
as: frequent repetition, used by well respected sources (University
texts and professors- who are mostly male), begins at an early age, and
covertness. And as for your comment about "Women and children first",
in my opinion it's not a gracious gesture out of concern, but an
implication that we can't take care of ourselves, reinforced by the
knight in shining armor coming to rescue his "damsel in distress".
Well, I for one don't need anyone to rescue me and resent the fact that
women are placed on the same competency level as children.
The mere fact that you state "In public life women have gained
increasing formal recognition", implies that they haven't had adequate
recognition in the first place which seems to contradict parts of your
argument that women's fight for rights is unfounded and they have an
unwarranted vendetta against men. In many parts of the world, female
children are still considered far less valuable than male children in
general. I read in the paper the other day of an Egyptian family
trying to have a boy and when they got a girl, the father was outraged,
stormed out of the hospital complaining that he wanted nothing to do
with her. (Sorry I do not have the source, but this is informal,
right?)
By no means am I justifying "male bashing", because taking it to
such extremes does harm to both sexes, but your site made me very angry
as a woman to have such strong factual history blatantly denied. I feel
as though men and women both have an equal amount to contribute to each
other and to the world, just qualitatively different. Anyway, I hope
that you seriously consider what I've discussed and think about all the
Salem Witch Hunts in the mean time; women persecuted out of
superstition, condemned and stereotyped by whom?- Men.
Skip to next entry or continue with my reply.
I cannot address all the points that you raise but I will address two for the sake of argument. The issue of suffrage you raise is telling. When you raise the issue you must identify which country is in question. I only have good information on Great Britain so I will use the statistics and facts from there. In the 19th century very few people had democratic rights and only a select number of people made important political decisions. Britain was at the forefront of democratic movements though not the leader. Toward the middle of the century a select number of upper class males where able to participate more in the decision making process. This increased with some agitation until several million men were able to vote. (2.2 million adult men out of a population of 22 million). Crucially, one of the reasons most people were excluded was according to the requirement of owning property. Without property the person was ineligible. Men were assumed to make voting decisions on behalf of the family and as women's property was combined with that of men upon marriage the idea of women voting was considered irrelevant. My understanding is also that suffragists were not interested inthe vote for all women, but for women of property. Furthermore there were strict rules on voting age rights. There was a belief that people were not sufficiently mature to vote until they were 21 there was also certainly some prejudice toward women being sufficiently mature. Now the point you make is that women did not vote until this century. (Full suffrage in 1924 in Britain) The fact remains that many men (in Britain) also did not vote until the 20th century. While discrimination is evident it is not of the scale of insidious prejudice which is characteristically invoked to generate indignation at the oppression of women.
I recently saw a very similar clever ideological dissimulation on the subject of the Olympics. A feminist expressed outrage at women's exclusion from the Olympic games at their modern inception. Woe and martyrdom! However that was in 1896 and the following games had female representation, thus making the issue virtually irrelevant. It should be pointed out that some women agitated against females participating. But much more significantly, we know women have a completely separate set of events and sports. If women had to compete equally in any sport there would literally be no female medal winners at all...except in the hop skip and whine. By having separate events women are given an opportunity to be honoured as exceptional athletes, within their sex and thus they are also frequently given equal star billing to the male athletes competing in similar events but performing at a higher level. I personally take no great interest in sport and the superior performance of male athletes is purely a technical observation. However, how do you maintain the claim of patriarchy under such circumstances?
Now to your claim that men own most wealth. It should be said that the Uinted Nations is also a feminist organisation because we see it reciting figures that women own 1% of the world's wealth and do 80% of the work or some such statistic. I do not know the true figures and facts for poor countries but I can say that my figures for the US paints a different picture. Some recent figures cited suggest that women own 80% of the wealth in the US. This may be attributed to their capacity to save, to their management of family finances and particularly due to their inheritance of jointly earned income and property after the death of a husband. (Men die almost 10% earlier than women, leaving a vast number of women with sole entitlement to accumulated savings.) In Australia women have a slightly higher rate of home ownership than men. I quote this from the Office for the Status of Women and the figure has solid logic. The reason is because women marry on average 3 years younger than men and they buy a house jointly. It should be mentioned that a house is by far the single most significant purchase made by people.
These are simply two primary issues and on each of the points you raise below there is a similar series of arguments. As you may notice I do not necessarily disagree wih some grey areas of your claims.
I am not trying to simplify the issues. I am trying to point out subtleties and complexities to expose the grandiose feminist statements seen constantly in the public eye as propaganda.
I disagree with a lot of things you say on your web, to me feminism is all about choice and the freedom to make your own decisions ie motherhood, going out to work whatever. its people like you that give femanism the bad name.
Read my reply or Skip to next archive (January)
The critical aim must be to look at the substance of the theory. We all want justice and equality. Even men want women to have a fair chance to live a fulfilling life. But what does feminism ACTUALLY say, in its detail? What is its analysis of sexual power?
When scrutinised, that is when critical people discover that its theories are one dimensional, sexist, aggressive, misleading, hateful, discriminatory, vacuous, circular, boring and ultimately even insidious.
I suspect people such as yourself are sitting in Gender Studies lectures and thinking "I am learning about equality and motherhood rights." Meanwhile the professor says, the essay for this week is "...that the modalities of feminine comportment, motility and spatiality exhibit tension between transcendance and immanence, between subjectivity and being a mere object." To translate this into English, "Feminism says: you're a piece of meat honey."
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